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Dzingo: The people responsible for Gligorov’s attempted murder are Macedonians

What are your feelings as a Member of Parliament with the longest service not just in this part of Europe, but perhaps in the world?

Dzingo: It is a great honor and pleasure to be a true Member of Parliament, especially if one is directly chosen by the voters and has convincingly won in fair and democratic elections with one’s own ideas realized in a programme, which in practice, is fulfilled in order to have the face and the courage to look for a new choice and support in the next elections. Each timed, I tried to keep my promises. My contribution to my electoral district can be seen everywhere on economic, infrastructural and general field. One can fool the voters once, but hardly twice. And I continually gained their trust based on results and visible effects. I was Member of Parliament in various socio-political systems. In the socialistic system, practically, one could be suggested for Member of Parliament with the blessing of the Central Committee of the League of Communists of Macedonia, but I was suggested for Member of Parliament for the first time in Yugoslavia at people’s gatherings in the Municipalities of Kumanovo, Kriva Palanka and Kratovo, all part of the Kumanovo area. In vast numbers. The Constitution and the Laws gave that possibility that nobody used because of the filters that followed. I passed each of them and that was regarded as a high achievement of Yugoslavia’s democracy. There some were controversies and resistance in regard to my choice, but the reason and progressive power of the society back then prevailed. There are a lot of interesting happenings, but I will bring out one more from today’s socio-political system. In the 90s for the first time independent Macedonia announced elections in multi-party system. Then I participated as an independent candidate for Member of Parliament and had a lot of opponents suggested by the parties. I won the elections with 92 % of the voters. People did note vote for a party, but a person, who did not failed them during the mandates back then. Many people asked me, and sometimes still ask me, why have I accepted to be a Member of Parliament, and not some higher state functions,that I have been offered in both systems. My answer has always been that I do not want to occupy myself with professional authority, that that is not what completes me and pleases me. Even though, I was once more chosen for Member of Parliament who knows after how many times in this mandate period, even though I was pressured not to resign, I told myself it was enough. Let’s leave the world to the young. I should take a rest and serve my country and homeland within the boundaries of my possibilities.

You were one of the rare businessmen, who ever since the socialism was using world experiences in the business. Did you 40 years ago know what would be happening to the world today?

DzingoI was lucky to go through a very successful educational system, learning from professors with great knowledge and culture and continuously widening that knowledge throughout my life. I also had the opportunity to hang out and communicate with people from the country and out of the country with whom I shared experiences and I applied everything I had the chance to learn, passing on it to the younger generations. Apart from that, I read a lot. Man learns throughout his entire life. Or simply said, one society is successful if it is continuously reformed. The easiest way to understand that is to see how man from the prehistoric community, through the changes of the social structure has managed to come to capitalism, and that is not the end. After that comes socialism, humanism and so on. In that long history there were forces that had the intention to stop or slow down the natural process of changing and that is when large or small social-economic crisis appear. Capitalism has failed, and until yesterday’s most developed world has experienced regression, stagnation in all areas and a penetration d of new states and people. BRIK is an obvious example. No one could believe that such crazy processes could actually happen, but if that happened, the wise world knew the epilogue, which is here today with its tragic consequences.

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Do you have any influence on the current right- wing government, which are typically left-wing, for example health resorts and free transport for pensioners?

DzingoThe Socialist Party of Macedonia, headed by since 1995, had the biggest conflicts with the governments until 2006 referring to issues with the transformation of the social capital, corruption, social reforms as well as economic reforms, which brought huge unemployment, misery, poverty, instability, endangered sovereignty, in short chaos, no prospect, anarchy and despair. I have talked about this countless times, plainly, with analysis, accurate data and the best indicator is the reality and the conditions we inherited. All of this was practically, the reason to go on the independent road since 1995, meaning economic and social reforms and perseverance of the country in all aspects. Nikola Gruevski’s coming as the head of VMRO-DPMNE has brought large ideological changes, especially in the economic and social sphere. I remember well when we reviewed his programme in 2006, it surprised everyone because in almost every field it totally coincided with our progremmes. Especially in economic and social spheres, culture and health. We immediately established that it is about an ideal partner and that both parties addressed the same electoral body, referring to the workers, peasants and intelligence. I was not surprised, regarding the fact that Gruevski comes from an honorable, diligent and patriotic family. His family worked very hard in order to secure their life. He grew with kids workers, peasants, intellectuals and that is the true. Everything that he has done in the social sphere has a great support, and he is an honorable and desired guest at all our manifestations. Not only do we have an exceptionally quality programmes, but they are being truly realized by him as the President of the Government. That is the reason that we have won the elections for the sixth time in a row, people massively support us and have faith in this Government which marks success on all fields in this times of crisis.

Do you still believe in the social ideas you have been fighting for your entire life?

Dzingo: In one of the previous questions I talked about how the world continually changes in every field and that nobody can do anything about that, how no one of the previous systems has endured because the development of science, culture, new huge science achievements created new changing relation in society. If capitalism is the last dominating system (I do not consider is as state administrative system, called by some communistic, which is not true, or socialistic, which is nonsense and that is why it failed), arises the question how to name the system that comes after capitalism?  Many world theoreticians and philosophers, among which the most famous is Marx, called it socialistic, which is first to come in the countries with the biggest development in manufacturing forces, freedom, democracy and social accomplishments. That is a system including many capitalistic countries, where everybody gets what they deserve, and with such socialistic achievements where nobody is hungry, socialistic progremmes secure decent human life. That is a system where our national treasure should be redistributed. That system will be secured by the new technological developments and scientific achievements, which is turning into reality today. I have always been fighting for such ideas and today I strongly believe in them and I am ready to take a bet with whoever that time will realize them. In contrary, there will be no second time and the end of the world will come.

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What was better in the socialism, and what is now?

Dzingo: From my previous answers it is obvious that I have not lived in a system of social organization, and I would be very happy if I did. Then existed capitalism with all its values as multi- party system, mainly in the West and administrative one-party system. The system was managed by the communist party with dominant public ownership and the authority was in the hands of one man. The Yugoslav system was totally different from other such systems because it was self-governing system. Self- government played a significant role in the implementation of the economic reforms. Workers got the factories and managed them as shareholding. However, the self- government was what caused interest and stimulation towards bigger productivity, thriftiness and continual production. National income, investments, employment, export were growing, thus the standard as well. Another characteristic is that the socialistic union was promoted as a second party through the back door, but very carefully and very much controlled, ans as time went by,it was getting more and more liberated and independent, so often candidly criticized the actions of the League of Communists of Macedonia (LCM). The third characteristic was that profit was a measure for the success of a manufacturing company and its workers. The positive thing in that system was the fact that it had order, discipline, security, safety, no corruption, crime at acceptable levels, high social security, free education, significant dedication on culture, sports, free treatments at health resorts, construction of worker’s resorts, cheap public utilities (water, electricity, heating, everything was cheap). Our citizens traveled around the world without visas, took vacations as in the country so in many surrounding  country for very low prices due to the high personal incomes, the national treasure was justly distributed, the awarding was in accordance with the contribution, as well as strong solidarity. All of this was allowed with strong continuous reforms. In 1980, when the reforms stopped, crisis in all spheres took place. That is what was positive in that self-government system. Today that is missing in this so called undefined ‘capitalistic system’. There was a huge chaos in the 90s, with a huge fake hope for building a system same as the Western, while the existing one was moving towards destruction because it reminded of one dark time. With the help of the international community and an agreement with the domestic rascals, through an outrageous criminal, corruption and disruptive behavior, the national treasure created by our fathers was robbed, destroyed and sold in just a few months. Generations and generations have created that treasure with a lot of enthusiasm, sweat, and often with Herculean efforts. Those who were building all that, among who was I myself, alerted, begging that that was an outrageous crime with priceless consequences. In 2006 the insanity stopped. A coalition of parties and people was made, which firmly and uncompromisingly decided to restore the country from the ruins and return the hope to the people with a wise and firm work and consistent policy. Now we are happy about the restored, the new built, but it is clear that it is easy to destroy, but hard to build.

You have witnessed many events from Socialist Republic of Macedonia. Can you make some comparison between the country’s attitude in regard to the name issue then and the situation today?

Dzingo: Our country’s name back then was also the Republic of Macedonia, forming a union with 5 other republics and two provinces. The confederate state was called Yugoslavia, where all republics were enjoying the same rights and obligations and their correlations and interests were established by agreements, the Constitution and the Law. It was a state with strong economy, strong army and bigger population than the neighbor countries, except Italy. No one had the courage to show territorial pretension towards any other republic or some republic’s name or language or identity. On the contrary, Yugoslavia at the request of the republics, demanded the nationalities in the neighboring countries to be recognized their national rights, right to speak their own language, to learn their language in schools, and to have an equal position in the countries where they lived. In that aspect, right after 1945, Bulgarians allowed Macedonians from the Pirin province to freely speak Macedonian, their kids to learn on Macedonian.  With the Communist Information Bureau after the conflict with Stalin, that was revoked, but Yugoslavia never forgot that issue and continuously brought it out.

What was Greece’s attitude back then? Did it have a different policy or it is a question of continuity? 

Dzingo: The Greek Civil War was supposed to resolve the Macedonian issue. Supporters of such conviction lost the war with the help of U.S. and England and Stalin’s help, who cancelled his support, leaving them fighting on their own. During the period of 1945 and 1990, Greece did not have any problems with the name, nor it had the courage to deny it. It did it after the break-up of Yugoslavia, showing off as the super power of the Balkans, gaining power as member of NATO and EU, blocking us, continuously looking for allies in the other Balkan countries so they could divide us and slowly widening its red lines. Now the issue is not just the name, but also the language, identity, culture, history and God knows what else. With one word, our entire existence. It is a great peril for them if Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia raise their awareness. Their mean intentions have already been irritating the progressive part of the world and people are starting to criticize their policy of using the right to veto in NATO and EU in order to prevent us from entering these organizations, which could set the Balkans on fire. Our Government leads a moderate and wise policy, thus acquiring the world public opinion. It is ready to talk, but when it comes to the name, the language, the identity, it has no room for any concession. LCM strongly supports such policy.

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What were your relations with the highest Yugoslav politicians Edward Kardel, Stane Dolanc and others?

Dzingo: I have studied at the Belgrade-based Faculty of Mining. I entered in politics with the election for party secretary of LCM in the basic organization within the high school in Kumanovo in 1995. My file was sent to the University Committee of LC in Belgrade. I was immediately included in the party structures and all kinds of commissions within the University and the Faculty of Mining. High politicians such as Vejlko Vlahovic , Aleksandar Ranković  and Miloš Minić came at the meetings of these structures, but I did not have any personal contacts with Edward Kardel and Stane Dolanc. I have seen them, but did not have any close relations. Later on I had contacts with many political factors by being a member of various structures of the Federation and the union of the people. I had special relations with Ante Marković, who is still deeply engraved in my memory as a great expert, politician and man.

What were your contacts with Tito’s White Palace like and what do you think of him now?

Dzingo: I had four contacts with Josip Broz Tito, as a member of Parliament and businessman. A lot of words have been said and written about Tito and that continues today, and in the future as well – he is a worldly man as a politician and statesman. I compare him with Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin, and he is far ahead from Mao Ce Dung, de Gaulle, Nehru and others. We, the Macedonians especially respect him, honor him and glorify him. His merit for what we are today is priceless because of what he did in regard to us, the Macedonians. I have my own opinion, which rests upon some realizations of my mind and logic, which I will tell in some other occasion. I personally think that he led the Yugoslavia exceptionally well, getting through all dangers. He outsmarted Churchill and stayed friends with him till the end, which is something big. He did not failed under the pressure by the biggest dictator at the time, Stalin. He created general ideas with the non-aligned, securing him a place next to the biggest and most powerful world statesmen and he opened huge markets for our products and services. The whole world respected him. All of this, and everything else he did when he had the strength, energy, health and clear conscience, which, obviously, was reducing over the years, making several huge mistakes. The first mistake is the collective presidency, existing nowhere else in the world, and can exist because such structure cannot function and has no moral, criminal or any other responsibility, and the events after are totally confirming all of this. He must and should  leave an heir in the system, for example one Ante Marković would do the job, and there can be many other people like him among the 25 million citizens. The second mistake is the set up  with the Constitution from 1974. Many wise people alerted about the dangers, but could not reach to him because he made the third mistake, he allowed to be isolated, even separated him from his wife, and the last mistake, which comes as the result from the previous ones, he stopped the reforms in economic and political field, and all of that caused all kinds of crisis. Or simply said, he was supposed to withdraw in the right moment, bringing a strong person at the head of the Federation, who would secure the circular flow of income and Yugoslavia’s accession to NATO and EU.

A lot of people blame Lazar Koliševski and other Macedonian politicians for being lenient towards Belgrade, lacking decisions which would be of a special Macedonian interest.

Dzingo: Now that we mentioned Lazar Koliševski, I will tell you right away that he was on of my best friends and I am proud of that. I met him in 1963, when he suddenly came to Kratovo, in “Sileks”. He had been informed that there was a young engineer, who with his innovations, technical and technological contemporary and professional expert solutions has increased the production by 100 %. He came with three other people in an old jeep to visit the mine “Sileks” and was thrilled by what he saw. There were 1,000 miners working in the mine, who applaud him, saluted him and wanted to talk with him. They seated somewhere around, and he talked about trade development, investing in researching the mine treasure, Yugoslavia’s place and role in the world and Macedonia’s in Yugoslavia, about self-government and its role and significance for the development of science and trade. When the speech was over, there was a huge applause, ovations and natural shouts: Tito, Lazo. An old minor stood  and asked him to visit the mine more often, having another opportunities for talks. I was very young and he was thrilled by the idea of me entering so boldly in the investment risks at such a young age, encouraging me and listening to my ideas attentively. He was exceptionally honest and moral man with rare humbleness, who read and learned a lot. He was one of the rare, who openly showed Tito his mistakes, various times retreated from the public life, but the people returned him. He especially liked Macedonia and the Macedonian people and embedded himself in it right from the start. The Federation respected him very much, he is the adopter of the proposal for forming the fond for development of the undeveloped countries, thus playing a significant role in our country’s development. There was nothing built before 1945, no industry, undeveloped agriculture and several tobacco monopolies. If we take a look at the Republic of Macedonia in the 90s, we will see what wonder was made, huge industry, developed mining, modern agriculture, strong infrastructure, education, health, culture, and all of that done by the Macedonian people, with the help of Yugoslavia. In that enormous country we had a huge market with high expenditure, we were happy and safe, we were respected, we had no issue with any of the republics, we had strong support in the united structures and Tito himself, building good relations with our policy. Some allegations that we have been building Belgrade are totally untrue. We ask with what, since we entered barefooted, poor, with no trade capacities, no personnel, but huge enthusiasm to succeed and build Macedonia. We managed that thanks to the construction generation, which cannot be said about the time after the 90s. I respect all those people an I am honored to have worked with them. I can only say to them one big thank you. We created our country with revolution and paid a huge price with human lives, and that would not what it was if we did not have all those great men who were building and built Macedonia in all spheres and embedded themselves in it.

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How was your relation with Kiro Gligorov, did you have any disagreements, did he consult you on the decisions that he brought?

Dzingo: I met Kiro Gligorov when I studied in Belgrade and immediately made friendly relation with him. He was on various positions in the structure of the Federation and was highly estimated as a politician and an expert. Tito had strong confidence in him and with his support, he was on very high positions such as Speaker of Yugoslavia’s Parliament, Minister of Finances, responsible for economic questions in CC of LCY. He was not in good relations with Kolisevski, although I was friend with both of them I was never interested in their relations, nor had they ever showed displeasure that I was maintaining friendly relations with both and they did not talk about each other in front of me. Later when I started developing the  “Sileks” company, I often went to Belgrade to visit Kiro in order to share opinions, and find out from first hand about the economic policy in Yugoslavia. Always when he came to Macedonia, he came on a private visit to Kratovo and those meetings were amiable and useful. When Yugoslavia broke-up, on his demand, we met in Ohrid, at the “Sileks” Hotel, and we dedicated a whole one day to the issue what afterwards and in what conditions will our country be. Then I asked him and said to him that in those unstable and utterly unpredictable events, it would be of a great use if he would engage as an experienced and proven man and politician in creating an independent and sovereign Republic of Macedonia. In the limits of my opportunities I worked hard and lobbied for him to stand at the head of the country. The events unfolded drastically, a danger was threatening, and a serious one, though. At that moment we did not have a more appropriate person than him, with prestige, knowledge, skills and experience. As known, he was not elected at Parliament in the first circle, and since I was the President of the Election Commission and then, in front of all Members of Parliament and the entire Macedonian public, I announced the failed election and said the famous sentence: “And now may God help you”. Such irresponsible behavior caused a huge revolt in the public and in the second circle, with certain compromises, Gligorov was elected with huge majority.

Today, at this point, I believe that that was the best solution, or in contrary there would be a war with terrible consequences. HE knew how to pull out the best moves in the most critical moments. I continuously kept good relations with him and often met him and he knew how to be consulted on many questions from the economic sphere, especially at the beginning, but later, due to enormous engagement, and the unfortunate event – the attack, he had much less time for meetings, but we managed to maintain our friendly relations until his death. He was an honest man, he loved Macedonia, but according to me he was surrounded with the wrong people, especially from the University team and he almost died. According to my deep conviction, those who ordered the attack were Macedonian criminal structure, while the perpetrators were from outside of the country.

When did you have the biggest challenges in your life, in independent Macedonia or in the former system?

 Dzingo: I have been faced with many challenges in my life, and I will only mention several. There was a huge risk to abandon the offered position as an assistant at the University of Mining in Belgrade and go to work at a municipality that was dying out because of the huge migration, with a lot of primitivism, forlorn and forgotten by everyone. This is what Kratovo looked like in 1962, without professional personnel, without material base, everybody was unemployed, with exceptionally undeveloped infrastructure, forgotten by God and by the authority. There was no economic capacity, only it was discovered that at the Crn Vrv Mountain there was sileks kvarcit, but no one with appropriate education do go and explore it, to make some methods of exploitation and find a way of manufacturing. It was the time when there were no engineers, technicians, qualified miners, mechanics. There was no educated or any other way qualified working force, and from nothing it had to be done something big, significant, something giving huge effects. That could only be accepted by a man that believed in himself and in his townsman, had love towards its end. I had knowledge, courage and ideas to succeed. I knew how to realize my thoughts, how to turn them into deeds, avoid all obstacles and pass the obstruction, it was a tough way , but with a great effort and sweat I passed that way and crowned it with great successes. In 1990 Kratovo almost had unemployed, the company “Sileks” grew in gigant, around 10 mines were working, 12 industrial capacities were opened, construction developed, as well as trade, agriculture, banks opened, television, utility services and many other works where over 4,000 workers were working, and there was an annual profit reaching even 40 million Deutsche Marks. For such gigantic successes I received all the awards and medals, even the most prestigious award “AVNOJ”. Every investment represented its own challenge, every, wrong investment could turn into fiasco, every entering in new areas could not end in fiasco. I brought the decisions on my own, but I also took the responsibility, I risked, but with professional studies and analysis, which I made myself, and took those risks to minimum, and I only accepted the challenge if I saw the solution in my mind, and my reason accepted it. Each time brings challenges and in independent Macedonia also I was frequently exposed to them as in the economic field so as in politics. Time and space do not allow me to list this time.

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If you could resolve the manner in which Macedonia develops yourself, what would you do different?

Dzingo: I continuously, here 20 years now, have been talking in Parliament and in the written as in electronic media what is wrong, and what should be done, and this time I will reveal shortly my views, attitudes, suggestions and ideas. The most important thing for a country to me is economy. This realization of mine I would put it everywhere and would include the most capable, the most creative personnel in its realization. If that realizations penetrates deeply in the people’s awareness, then all others, in compliance with their opportunities, will give their contribution and that word will represent a huge power which will cause a great pleasure and good will, as well as an appropriate climate for economic processes. That would eliminate the huge mistake made by engaging party, and not capable personnel and the amusement with peripheral problems, criminal and corruption, “all in the name of the party” and “allegedly for the party”. Then I would determine the strategic causes and how to reach them, whit which means i which pace of realization. Third, if one model of social structure, as in our case, the self-governing social structure, is not sustainable in that form and shape, I would provide time and way for its transformation. However, if ownership is the main obstacle of that transformation, then it would transform from social to state, but in a manner and form that would give positive effects, without running nor from the state, if qualified managers are provided, nor from the state, if grantees that the invested capital will return the manufacturing capacity and develop it further on and will not lay off workers, but will engage the spare ones in additional manufacturing in the next five years. Something similar to what China does and is experiencing a huge expansion. I do not accept the thesis that only the private sector is the one bringing profit and development. That is a suicidal thesis, rushed, irresponsible and not allowed to be sold one big national treasure. The so called golden chickens, which create high profits, nobody would privatize them at any cost, or allow to enter private capital just up to 49 %, and all means received on that base would go in developing the economy. Fourth, I would not allow the means collected with the privatization of the social capital to got to the budget, and then in the expenditure for salaries, but to a special fund for development of strategic branches and goals with which the capital would rise. I would put every manufacturing unit under professional analysis, especially those companies that suffer loses. The professional analysis should show where this loss comes from and what should be done to eliminate the reasons for the loss. They can be of various characters. There is a solution to everything. Insolvency is the ultimate measure and should be ended fast and useful. Insolvency managers were supposed to be experienced and capable businessmen, who instead of liquidation, they should effect the manufacturing capacity. With this manner of solving the problems, unemployment would not appear in such measures as we had, but if does appear, I would develop the light industry with stimulative means, or in other words, intense work. Where unqualified workers can be employed with little money, who gain knowledge and skills with short-term training. To me, strategic branches are agriculture, mining and energetics. Towards the end of 20th century 90% of the workable areas were in the private sector, and only 10% in the social ownership. I would establish the usage of the land with the law, where every inch of land must be placed in normal functioning. I would not privatize the agricultural combine, but I would equip them to be the bearers of the development of the private sector for basic stuff or small manufacturing capacities. I would engage the means of the state in research, opening mines and foreign investments. I would also enable foreign investments in the phase of research under the strict supervision of the structure for research. I would add nothing to the current laws on attracting foreign investments. I would not privatize any of the banks. Private banks do not add fresh capital, they collect the saving deposits of the citizens and create profit from them, which take out side. I have so much more ideas and solutions, which many of them have already been realized by the current Government. Those not realized is impossible to be realized since the former governments, practically, have thwarted that with their huge mistakes. Here, time has shown who was right, and we all bear the final negative consequences.

By Nenad Mircevski

Photo: Aleksandar Ivanovski